How to use motorcycles to improve our drivers

"bob and john" (bobandjohn) 04/25/2016 at 07:00 • Filed to: None

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Now, this is going to be a more controversial post, so I have my flame suit on.

We all know that the US and canada has an issue with bad drivers. Not to mention a slight issue with congestion and traffic jams and people using giant SUVs to haul their butts 4 miles to the gym to run 4 miles on the tread mill.

(actually, Hammerheadfistpunch JUST posted !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , which works out great for me)

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

what do I propose...I’m proposing that for the first 2 years, you aren’t allowed to drive cars, and you have to ride a motorcycle. and you HAVE to get a certain amount of mileage under your belt too, so you cant just buy a bike and say you’ve been riding.

Now, what does this accomplish?

First off: it lets Darwinism do its work. All of the idiots who think driving drunk or intoxicated or too fast will crash and off themselves. Brutal? yes. Does it weed out the idiots? yes. Plus its a nice, quick death that means you and I dont pay more for their hospital bills.

This also applies to squids. You have all seen the ‘Why ____ makes a bad starter bike” series. If someone chooses to start on a bike like that, again, it just darwinism working its way out.

Another advantage to that is: They are not driving 1.5, 2 ton death cages. They are on 300-500lbs bikes. This means, if/when they crash, the only people who are going to get hurt is themselves. They aren’t going to take out a family in a minivan on the way to a soccer game, the only person who is going to die is the idiot on the bikes. (though the minivan might be worse for the wear)

What other big thing is a problem with today drivers? They don’t have enough situation awareness of their surroundings. By starting on a bike, they are forced to learn how to keep an eye on their surroundings. They learn to recognize changing conditions and where there is more or less grip. This will lead into their car driving when they eventually start, and as a bonus, They (should) have developed the habit of checking mirrors and everything by now, which will also pass into the cars.

There is also another thing this does. By riding a bike around, it would help the general public image of bikes. It is seen by far too many as ‘just a toy’, when in reality, it could be used as a commuter. Honestly think about it. why take a car meant for 4 other people when its just little old you in it? And it saves you gas as well!

Another bonus: Less traffic! I remember Wes saying that is 20% of people switched to bikes, we could cut congestion and traffic by 40%. How great would that be?

And the bonuses dont end there. We are always complaining about those who have no idea who to drive in the snow and rain. On bikes, new people will be much less tempted to go out in the rain, and they cant go out in the snow. This eliminates all of the newbies who are still learning how to deal with traffic. It wont get rid of those who dont know how to drive in snow, but it should (theoretically) increase the skill of those one the road, as by now they should have learned how to deal with traffic and left and right turns.

It would also help boost the market for small, cheap commuter bikes, which everyone benefits from!

What draw backs are there...We would need some sort of governing body to make sure the insurance companies don’t charge the SHIT out of the new riders for insurance. And motorcycle shops and gear stores would have to get a LOT bigger. (but is that really a draw back?)

As for disabled people...Trikes. Hand controls can be used no problem for them.

Now, if someone doesn’t have the physical condition to handle a trike or bike on the road, I really don’t think they are in the condition needed to handle a 2 ton hunk of speeding metal on the road. It not just for their safety, but for the safety of of everyone else.

Trunk Impaired 318 > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:34

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Cuts down on fuel consumption too!

jkm7680 > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:43

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That's extremely impractical for the most part.

Kids, commute, winter, rain and a few more things I'm probably forgetting to mention. All of that stuff would get in the way of daily functioning with only access to a bike.

I tend to swing through things pretty fast, honestly bikes was one of them. Even when I was very into bikes, I still couldn't see myself riding one on a daily basis. I could see riding it when the weather was good, but never riding it 24/7 and not driving a car.

Alex from Toronto > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:44

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I think a defensive driving course and driving school should be mandatory before getting fully licensed.

bob and john > jkm7680 04/02/2015 at 20:45

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yea, but this is when you START to drive. Once you have your 2 year/10K miles on the bike, you can get a car.

jkm7680 > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:49

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Well in that case, lots of body bags would be required.

90% of people under the age of 18 who ride motorcycles tend to be complete tools. There is still that 10% but still. Another thing is that parents seem to be getting sort of overprotective, and I honestly wouldn't put my kids on motorcycles until they were about 18 if they wanted to.

I'd make them learn to drive on a manual transmission though, I strongly believe that making good drivers involves starting them off on a manual transmission until they are model drivers.

bob and john > jkm7680 04/02/2015 at 20:51

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hence the: "controversial post, flame suit on"

Frankly, I wouldnt mind if we got rid of a couple of idiots on the roads. Help bring our (frankly abysmal) drivers skill and maturity level up a couple of notches.

jkm7680 > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:54

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Haha, "natural selection."

RallyWrench > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:57

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You know what works even better for situational awareness and traffic reduction? Bicycles. And, people would be fitter, reducing overall health insurance costs.

CB > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 20:58

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What about people who physically cannot ride a motorcycle, but can drive a car with steering wheel controls? What about winter? Also, wouldn't it make more sense to put people in a safer vehicle first and have them learn the basics rather than crying "hurr durr Darwinism will weed out the stupid" as a defence to prevent stupid drivers?

Also, I remember talking with you last night about driver's licenses and convenience. Suppose I live a fair distance from everything and I just got my license. How will I carry a large amount of groceries? Pick up my friends when I'm a designated driver? Drive my grandfather to the movies?

I will be honest: I think this idea is stupid.

bob and john > RallyWrench 04/02/2015 at 20:59

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they ARE just motorized bicycles is you stop and think about it.

plus, bicycles are slower :D

CB > Alex from Toronto 04/02/2015 at 21:00

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I think this is the way to do it. More education is always the best bet.

Alex from Toronto > CB 04/02/2015 at 21:01

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Yeah my parents are making me take these. That and the insurance discounts driving school give you.

bob and john > CB 04/02/2015 at 21:02

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god dam it CB read the whole article

'As for disabled people...Trikes. Hand controls can be used no problem for them."


Also, this is for your first 2 years. not for your life. frankly, i woudlnt mind keeping all of the complete noobs off the streets in the winter.

uhh...you didnt have that conversation with me last night....I was hardly on the computer

CB > Alex from Toronto 04/02/2015 at 21:02

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I took driver's ed, and I find that it was incredibly worth it. Also, it's an excellent thing to get some experience in with someone who knows how to drive, rather than your parents, who may not be great at it.

cornerslide > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:05

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In theory it's a great solution. If this was designed to make a point about what should be involved in getting that first license I get it. There are also days when I think it should have happened by "alligator selection". Most of em get eaten before their first swim is over.

bob and john > cornerslide 04/02/2015 at 21:07

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OM NOM NOM NOM NOM

CB > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:07

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Yes I did. You remarked about how I didn't have my full license and that you normally push for people to get their full license as soon as possible, and your friends saying that you were right when they needed to drive a car but only got their G1s.

And what about wheelchairs? It'd be hard to transfer from a wheelchair onto a trike.

I still disagree on the winter standpoint. How do you build up experience driving in the winter? By driving during it, normally with someone who has driven in the winter giving you tips.

Once again, I think this idea is stupid.

bob and john > CB 04/02/2015 at 21:09

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your right, forgot about that.

wheel chair trike. BAM

I'm not saying dont drive in winter. But drive in it once you know how to actually deal with traffic and your not sitting there going: So do I go now? do I wait for him?

titsinmymitts > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:10

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Hahaha, there would be so many dead teenagers in the streets. I would have been one of them.

While I think this post was at least partly satirical, there is a trend in automotive crash standards that has bothered me for a while.

Any new car has basically been designed so that you could slam head-on into a concrete wall at 80 miles per hour and walk away without a scratch.

My question is, should that be the goal? Should a car accident have no consequences whatsoever? So, rich kids who can afford brand new Range Rovers can just distractedly plow their 4500 pound behemoth of a vehicle into some poorer family's '97 Accord and kill everyone without any injury to themselves whatsoever?

My first car was a '99 Accord I4 with a 5-speed that had no traction control, no stability control, no ABS and a grand total of 2 airbags in the whole damn car. It weighed about the same weight as a Ford Fiesta, and was an excellent car to learn to drive on. Not enough power to get into trouble, but involving and engaging enough that you had to pay attention to what you were doing, especially in the snow.

I think a car similar to that is something most teenagers should get started in.

CB > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:11

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That's cool, but I don't think it would solve every issue.

You do have a fair point with the not knowing when to go, but then why not go with Alex's idea of mandatory driver's ed?

bob and john > titsinmymitts 04/02/2015 at 21:13

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hehehe.

you an I had this conversation about speed and what not.

If you start on a 250, its not hard, its not REALLY that dangerous if you pay fucking attention, and it cheap and fun.

if you start on a liter bike, then that's just darwinism at work.

as for the car: this is my take on it

bob and john > CB 04/02/2015 at 21:14

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drivers ed is only as good as the teachers and frankly? you know how shitty it is in canada. They still use videos from the 80's for crying out loud!

titsinmymitts > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:16

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Yea, but you have to remember when you were 15/16 and thought you were invincible.

I would have picked up a used 04-06 R1 or something ridiculous. I just know I would have lol. As would nearly all of my friends. It's just what teenage guys do.

CB > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:19

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Improve the teachers, then. My teacher was absolutely wonderful (then again, my family did pay an arm and a leg for Young Drivers) and probably taught me more than my parents ever could have. Did you know that during an advance green, it's illegal to make a right turn when the left turners are going in the same direction you would be? I didn't, and I don't think I would have. If we have a standardized curriculum and regular licensing for teachers, I think things would be a lot better.

Once again, education is key, not sadism hidden under the guise of Darwinism. Believe me, I hate people who can't drive, but seeing them die? That's a little extreme.

bob and john > titsinmymitts 04/02/2015 at 21:20

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I was 15/16. and guess what? I wanted my dads Buell to start off with. because I wasnt an idiot. And I got said buell to start off with,

oh how I miss thumper.

bob and john > CB 04/02/2015 at 21:20

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I'm less about ppl who cant drive and more about dick bags to think they own the road.

CB > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:22

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Then get a dashcam and occasionally send video to your local police detachment? Or put in on YouTube. Either or.

bob and john > CB 04/02/2015 at 21:23

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they are too busy getting donuts. I've never seen YRP actually do much good. We called them for a altercation this summer. took them AN HOUR to get there.

titsinmymitts > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:24

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You have to cater to the lowest common denominator with laws and regulations, which is why you'd have to put a displacement limit on the bikes for teenagers.

I actually remember wanting an SV650 back when I was 17 or so. Not quite as crazy as an R1, but still up there.

Did you start riding when you were 16 or so? That shit never flew at my house—my parent's were dead set against bikes and still are.

Anyways:

bob and john > titsinmymitts 04/02/2015 at 21:27

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yep, I started riding the day I could.

My parents looked at it this way: I'm going to do it eventually. There is no stopping me. Might as well get my started now when they can make sure I have the proper gear, the proper training, the right bike, then when i'm 20 and do the squid thing (not that I would have done it)

Fact that I raced mountain bikes (and as was dam good at it too...podium in the high school regionals almost every year I raced) probably helped my case a little too.

THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA-THUMPA

titsinmymitts > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:32

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I did a lot of road bike racing back in high school in the Chicago area. Good trails for any sort of mountain biking are hard to find in that area, so never got into the off-road stuff.I miss racing every once in a while but not sure I could hack being on the bike 3 or so hours each day again.

Nothing like carving corners with 40 other bikes around you, though. I had a super stiff bike back in the day with really sharp handling. I loved it but it beat you up.

It makes me laugh when people say their car rides stiff. They have no clue what a stiff ride really is, lol.

bob and john > titsinmymitts 04/02/2015 at 21:36

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yea. i hacve a roadie too. you wanrt stiff? i;'ll show you stiff

titsinmymitts > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 21:37

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What road bike ya riding?

Corovius > jkm7680 04/02/2015 at 21:47

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'naturally aspirated selection' should be a thing

bob and john > titsinmymitts 04/02/2015 at 21:51

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devinci CX3 with thew most mis-matched drive train you will ever see..

3rd gen ultegra crank, rear derailuer,
2nd gen dura ace cassette, front D
4th gen 105 shifters
5th gen ultegra chain

Corovius > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 22:14

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The increased likelihood of dying by inconsiderate drivers and my inner [hoonster?] keeps me off a motorcycle. I wish it were otherwise, I wouldn't mind owning one. I doubt youths and parents alike wouldnt accept a mandate for this. I like the idea though - I think some mods it could be made more plausible. Altering city/state ordinances deregulating dirt bikes and ATVs (4x4) for road use - Obviously keep brake lights headlights and indicators mandatory, but as a kid I would've been much more comfortable on an ATV than a motorcycle. Perhaps make it more of an engine cc or hp limit, in addition to a size/weight limit. keep the youngins out of SUV wrecking balls and crotch rocket missiles.

Clown Shoe Pilot > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 22:28

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You're 100% right.

When I learned to ride (at age 32) I was immediately struck by how much MORE situational awareness was required to successfully make it to work on a bike and maintain myself in an un-killed state. After riding a couple years I also noticed that my increased SA carried into the car as well.

I think requiring every new driver to ride a bike for a couple years would do WONDERS for the skill level of the driving public. I'd also invest in a body bag manufacturer because a lot of people who have no business on the road would find the problem solving itself.

bob and john > Clown Shoe Pilot 04/02/2015 at 22:36

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My friend pointed this out to me too. When ever I drive them somewhere, they are amazed at how much I keep aware of my surroundings. Parents did too. I never noticed it.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > CB 04/02/2015 at 22:53

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I'm curious - where are you located that this is a law? And does it only apply to advance green or any time there is someone making a left turn?

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 23:01

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Very fun-to-read article. Although not entirely practical in countries such as the US or Canada (not just weather, but imagine the backlash and lawsuits if you try to force people onto motorcycles! "It's my right to be in a car!") you definitely made some good points. Driver education as a whole needs to improve anyway.

Also I think cities need to do more in order to be more welcoming to motorcyclists. If I choose to forgo public transit when making my way from the suburbs into the downtown core, I want the city to give me a reason to take my motorcycle vs my car. The benefits to the city are noticeable - less congestion, less room required for parking, less pollution - but it's the exact opposite for the motorcyclist (shit roads, shit drivers, chance of getting the bike stolen...).

bob and john > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option 04/02/2015 at 23:16

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while you do Have a point, my biggest selling point for taking my bike into the city (and if i have to, I will ALWAYS take the bike) is the fact that I dont have to deal with traffic. Yes, lane-spliting is illegal, but i get to work or w/e i need to be on time, i dont take up space, and I stay safe from getting read ended. Something that would take me 2 hours on a car would take me 20 minutes on a motorcycle.


Also, living in canada, I would say this: your right to be in a car? Its also my right to not give you a drivers permit if you cant prove you are safe enough to be on the roads. Canada already denys people who have seizures their drivers permit.
Oh, still going to drive? okay, here is your massive fine

D > bob and john 04/02/2015 at 23:45

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fucking psychopath

bob and john > D 04/02/2015 at 23:47

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bob and john > Corovius 04/03/2015 at 00:13

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a great mid way for that is track days. you can start off on a little 250 and go from there. no insurance, just you, the bike, and the track

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > jkm7680 04/03/2015 at 01:02

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But the system that he describes is very similar to many Asian and even european nations - start them on scooters and small displacement bikes. Most kids don't commute far anyways. How many high schoolers or college students work 40+ miles from where they live? It's more like 5-10. I worked at a shop 3 miles from home. My friends were all within 5 miles. A few of them did have scooters or honda rebels as their "First car". They never had any problems. Neither did anyone else in a similar boat. I certainly could have hopped on a 150cc scooter for a year no problem. Even a 50-100cc scooter really. I never had a big reason to use the highways anyways.It wouldve taken a bit longer to use side streets but I learned that with time anyways.

CB > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option 04/03/2015 at 01:06

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I'm in Ontario and only on advance greens. Any other time the person turning right has right of way.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > CB 04/03/2015 at 01:56

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I have seen some intersections that have both the advance green for left-turners and a right arrow for right-turners going onto the same street (Bathurst and Finch in Toronto is one example of this). Can you actually point me to where you got your info from? From what I have read in the past there is nothing wrong with making a right turn while someone has an advance green as long as there are separate lanes for everyone. Now, people not turning into the proper lane is a different problem in itself...

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > bob and john 04/03/2015 at 02:01

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Any chance you are in the GTA? I have seen some guys lane split and always wondered if its taken seriously by the cops here.

What I meant by "right to be in a car" is that the government is so un-progressive that they'd never implement your suggestion because they'd cave to public pressure (I imagine it'd be greatly opposed by nearly every driver).

Joel Ness > bob and john 04/03/2015 at 02:32

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The thing is, I agree with the main thrust of what you are saying. More people with situational awareness hard wired into their brain is a good thing. Being on a bike naturally does that. The finer points, like: having it mandatory, I don't agree with. After spending some time in Europe I found that two wheeled things are extremely common and aalmost preferred due to economy. Thing is, most of the world has gotten to the point they have because they've had to. If it happened in the usa it would start off slow but soon you would see new legislation for lane splitting and a new focus on biker awareness for drivers. I'm Washington state we have a bill that is being decided that could allow lane splitting. That's a big deal if you aren't a sunny state like California,Arizona, New Mexico or the like. These sort legal actions will cause drivers to pay more attention to what they are doing because now there is liability on the line. Late night rambling but you get my point.

bob and john > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option 04/03/2015 at 02:35

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just north of the Gta, Richmond Hill. The cops dont really care as long as you arent being a dick about it. I try to keep mine to a minimun, as some.cops are more dickish then others.

As for the government thing, oh yea i know. this is never going to happen

bob and john > Joel Ness 04/03/2015 at 02:39

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Truth is ive gotten VERY little backlash from this. Im quite surprised. I know something like this is NEVER going to come to fruition, but at the same time, never hurts to have a bit of friendly bantering and back and forth

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > bob and john 04/03/2015 at 03:17

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I'm praying the weather holds tomorrow and I get to take out my bike at least for a day. It's in Thornhill.

bob and john > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option 04/03/2015 at 07:44

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really? you wouldnt happen to have facebook would you? would be nice to have some more riding buddies

CB > valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option 04/03/2015 at 08:57

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Hm. It turns out I am wrong. I apologize. And I got the information from my driving instructor (then again, he was also British, so maybe the law is different there and he mixed them up?). Maybe I was told that so I wouldn't attempt to make a turn when people don't turn into their proper lane, as you mentioned. Anyway, my mistake.

EDIT: found that information here .

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > bob and john 04/03/2015 at 09:55

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Vlad Katkov, feel free to add me.

JasonStern911 > bob and john 04/03/2015 at 12:47

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They aren't going to take out a family in a minivan on the way to a soccer game, the only person who is going to die is the idiot on the bikes.

As someone who has, and continues, to ride motorcycles on the street for years, I can safely say that a distracted driver in a minivan is more likely to take out a motorcycle rider than a teenager in a modern car taking out everyone in a minivan.